The Craftivist Collective

In this episode, Chantelle spoke to Sarah Corbett from the Craftivist Collective about growing up an activist and the power of gentle protest. Their conversation explores activism burnout and how the Crativist Collective came to be as well as the origins of craftivism and the incredible campaigns that Sarah has run with it.

Reading List

Sarah recommends:

The Gift of Anger by Arun Gandhi and translated by Suzan Cenani Alioğlu

A Gift of Love by Martin Luther King Jr.

and has also written several books on craftivism:

A Little Book of Crativism by Sarah Corbett

How to Be a Craftivist by Sarah Corbett

Craftivist Collective Handbook by Sarah Corbett

You might also want to check out:

craftivism: the art of craft and activism by Betsy Greer

Knitting for good! by Betsy Greer

The Master's Tools Will Never Dismantle the Master's House by Audre Lorde

The following sound effects were used in this podcast:

knitting and dropping metal knitting needle by HanulSkyGirl

Seamstress’ Large Scissors by Jakobthiesen

Seamstress’ sewing machine setup and run by Jakobthiesen

Paper Crumple Craft Sound by EminYILDIRIM

Transcript:

Chantelle  00:03 Hello and welcome to the Revolution Begins at Home, a podcast about activism, what it looks like and who gets to do it.

Chantelle  00:12 My name is Chantelle Lewis, I'm a public sociologist and the co-founder and co-host of the Surviving Society Podcast. 

Chantelle  00:21 Throughout this series, I'm going to be speaking to activists and advocates about their work. We'll be talking about what it means to be an activist, what it involves, and how structures of power determine what we consider to be activism or worthy of an activist movement.

Chantelle  00:46 In today's episode, I spoke to Sarah Corbett.

Sarah  00:50 So I always say Craftivism is a little bit like punk music, you know, you've got all these different bands and musicians who sounds completely different, but they're all under that umbrella.

Chantelle  00:59 Sarah is an award winning campaigner and the founder of the Craftivist Collective, a social enterprise making big changes through gentle and intimate protest. Before we hear the full interview, and all about the incredible work of the Craftivist Collective, here are Sarah's activist influences....

Sarah  01:19 Oh, so many. Yeah, there's so many. I love Gandhi. I just read his grandson's book about the Gift of Anger, which is really good. I'm an introvert, so Eleanor Roosevelt was a big inspiration for me. But I always come back to Martin Luther King Jr. which sounds a bit cheesy, but my book - Strength to Love is his book of sermons and speeches. And I have a tattoo on my shoulder saying "tough mind, tender heart", which is what he said every activist needs. You need a tough mind to be super strategic, but you need a tender heart to do everything with love and through love, not for love. So Martin Luther King all the way.

Chantelle  01:55 Martin Luther King all day, every day.

Sarah  01:58 Amen.

[music]

Chantelle  02:06 Hello, everyone. [laughs] I'm so excited today to be joined by Sarah Corbett who is the founder of the Craftivist Collective. So Sarah, you are a social enterprise founder, an award winning activist, and author and an Ashoka fellow

Sarah  02:27 All the A's, yeah.

Chantelle  02:28 All the A's. And for those that don't know what Ashoka fellow is, these are people who work in social change all over the world. So you're like a living legend sat in the room with me.

Sarah  02:38 Far from it, I'm figuring stuff out as I go along.

Chantelle  02:42 Sarah, I'm going to tell you You are a living legend sat in front of me and I told you when the men come on, they don't shut up telling me about themselves but when women like you come on, I'm always just so inspired and so excited and want to uplift you because we're so - we're so bad at like uplifting ourselves.

Sarah  02:58 I'm really good at doing it for other people. I love bigging up other people, but when it's yourself it's like, oh, you just cringe and the little scouser on my shoulder is like, "who do you think you are, talking the good about yourself?" [laughs]

Chantelle  03:10 No, I totally understand that. But equally, like I've gotta gash up definitely. Amazing, amazing stuff. So what is Craftivism?

Sarah  03:19 Good question. So craftivism, in its simplest form is the word craft and activism mushed up together. So it was coined in 2003 by a woman called Betsy Greer, who is American and she's a knitter and she joined, she actually was in London, she was living above an amazing shop that's now closed called Prick Your Finger and joined some like feminist craft groups and realized that the knitting groups especially we're talking about politics, and personal, as well as you know, personal political as well as systemic change stuff while they were knitting and making and make do and mend stuff and basically merged, you know, created this word. And I googled craft activism in 2008, when I thought, oh, I think these could work well together. And there wasn't any groups that I could join or projects I could do. So I emailed her and said, I'd love to use this word and try things out. Is that okay? And she lets anyone use the word. So I call my approach gentle protest. But there's lots of different approaches out there, you can crochet voodoo dolls of particular world leaders, and that could be seen as craftivism. Or you could do like some of the stuff I do, where we make gifts for power holders that are small and humble, to encourage them to use their power for good and hold them accountable more as critical friends than aggressive enemies. But if you google Craftivism, you'll find lots of different things and you can go down a rabbit hole for years probably.

Chantelle  04:46 That's amazing! So we you... prior to emailing Betsy, and prior to looking up this stuff, were you into craft and creativty anyway?

Sarah  04:51 No! I was always creative. So I loved drawing and painting and doodling. I'm an introvert so I was always in my own little world, always making and playing around. But in school we didn't really have great craft teachers, never got into craft. My Nan as well was a really good crochet knitter and tapestry woman and she'd sell some of her stuff to make a bit of extra cash. So if anything, I was put off craft because I thought she's so good. But I picked up a cross stitch kit on a train to Glasgow when I was working for the Department for International Development on a big national project. And I was so burnt out and I couldn't read my reports and write my emails on a Pendolino train up to Glasgow from London because I get sick.

Chantelle  05:36 Oh my god they make me feel so sick!

Sarah  05:37 I was so sick!

Chantelle  05:38 I can never remember what they're called

Sarah  05:40 Pendalinos

Chantelle  05:40 Yes, every time I go up to Scotland and I get off them and I feel, oh my god I feel so ill.

Sarah  05:43 Yes, it was five hours to Glasgow and I thought I'm so exhausted and I'd just moved to London, I think a year before and I'd joined up to activist groups because my background's activism. I really wanted to paint or draw and I missed using my hands, but I couldn't do that on Pendalino. So I weirdly picked up a tiny cross stitch kit of a teddy, it was like a fiver, quite ugly, didn't know what to do with it. But it felt accessible because it's just crosses. So I thought, well, this is something I could try. I can YouTube it. And then I immediately noticed that it slowed me down. It calmed me down. It made me aware how shaky my hands were, how shallow my breath was, how actually exhausted I was as an activist in my job as well as in my personal life. And the process. I thought oh my word, it's helping me think more critically, I'm less anxious, the people opposite me were asking what I was doing. And I'm an activist. I'm not a crafts person. So as soon as people asked me what I was doing, I was like, if only I didn't say it to them, it was in my head, I was like, if only this wasn't a teddy, if it was a quote from Ghandi, we could talk about inequality! So I started thinking the process could help with activism, and then the object what could the object be to engage people in a quieter, more intriguing than aggressive way? And it just in my head, it made sense. But then when I googled stuff, there wasn't anything. So yeah, I asked permission to use the word and then it just that was 12 years ago or longer. It was crazy.

Chantelle  06:05 It's such an amazing story. And it really does help like listeners understand like how things come to be and how it's a very... it's a it's a long but kind of detailed process and it's very personal.

Sarah  07:21 It hasn't been like, I'm going to do this perfect package thing. It's been, where's there a need? Am I the right person to fulfill it? Or should someone else do it? And really, always starting small rather than big, because if you start big thinking, I'm going to fix the world and save it, you're sort of fueled by ego and you might... you're setting yourself up to fail. So I think yeah, it is about being organic. And the world changes so much, like, when I started doing the Craftivist Collective Instagram didn't exist, Pinterest didn't exist. Twitter was quite new, it was more... Online was much more about blogs, vlogs were not really there. It's a different world. So you've always got to be thinking about what fits in the context we're in.

[sound of knitting needles]

Chantelle  08:10 So I guess that would be it'd be really helpful, now, to tell listeners a little bit about the Craftivist Collective.

Sarah  08:15 Yeah.

Chantelle  08:16 What is it?

Sarah  08:17 What is it? So it's a social enterprise. It's a... it's not like an Arts Collective where you you know, get interviewed and you're in it, it's whoever gets involved in our projects and community, you are part of the Collective if you want to be, [laughs] we're not forcing you into it. And I create different projects people can do. Some are issue specific and time bound, and some are more you can use this for your own issue, whether it's local, national, international, and I have kits that people buy, I've books and tools and manifestos and different resources and then lots of free resources on the website. And then I deliver lots of workshops, consultancy and collaborations with charities, lots of events for art institutions, whether it's like the V&A and the Tate or different festivals, so a real mix. But my hope is that the Craftivist Collective is a really useful place for people to learn how to do gentle protest craftivism. So when I say gentle, I think a lot of people might be like, oh, it's such a loaded word. So I don't mean passive or weak. And especially as a woman, we need to make sure that that's not the presumption. I mean, as in, it's about being compassionate to yourself and to others, so you don't burn out as an activist, but also, you're not demonizing other people, which is not good for your own health, but not good for your campaign. So it's about being compassionate, but it's also gently being super strategic, really careful, being gentle on the planet. So all of our resources are mostly upcycled and donated and small, not big and it's a catalyst for change, it's not something that is about transaction, but transformation, and it's protest. So we're really focused on protests. So it is about there's a problem and what is the solution and how can we be part of turning that problem into a solution. So it's not fundraising. It's not just awareness raising, it's always protesting against something that you want to change, but always offering solutions and always in a positive way.

Chantelle  10:10 So in terms of thinking about everything you've just said there, Sarah, and thinking about the notion of gentle protests and thinking about you and your organization as changemakers.

Sarah 10:20 Yeah.

Chantelle  10:21 How... if there's a listener now, who is an organizer or an activist, that does stuff that isn't gentle protest? How do we make them understand that this in itself is still a valid way of doing things? So do you know what I mean like, I'm sure you get like, critique?

Sarah  10:37 Yeah, and I love it like, because I wouldn't be doing what I do if it didn't work. And that's the main thing like I do it because it works. I don't see myself as a crafter, I love craft. But I always say we need to see craftivism as one tool in the activism toolkit. It's not there to replace other forms of activism. And a lot of the time I spend is actually telling, whether it's a charity, or a local activist group, or individuals on social media, is telling them not to do craftivism, because sometimes it's not the right tool to pick out of the toolkit. So I worked with Share Action, who do incredible activism, shareholder activism, where we made gifts for the board members of Marks and Spencers to ask them to pay the living wage, which within 10 months of our protests they did pay the living wage, and they said that they wouldn't have done it without our gentle protest, because it was so unusual and humble and quiet and thoughtful and was about their customers and them and not about just anyone joining in. So it's really, it can be really useful for lots of different people in different ways. But I think we should be as new critical and strategic with every activism tool. Sometimes I'll go on a march, even as an introvert who doesn't like shouting lots. And sometimes I do boring petitions, sometimes I have meetings with power holders that I will never be able to tell anyone about because it's important that it's you know, confidential. I think we need... we all need to know how there's so many different tools in the activism toolkit and how to use it to be most effective for the campaign

Chantelle  12:03 God, that's so powerful and I'm just, do you know, as you were talking you gave like that example of like the Marks and Spencers board members, I'm just sat there thinking of them in like their like massive tower like opening... you bought in some amazing examples of some of the craft that you do at the Craftivist Collective, and them opening it and like reading messages on there about -

Sarah  12:21 Yeah, I mean, we handle it with them at the AGM. So we bought a share, which is one pound, the admin fees cost us 40 pound and I had - there's 14 board members. So I picked 14 craftivists from across the UK, not global because it was a UK AGM, and I specifically picked people who either were or looked like their core customer base. Because again, if you're working back from 1) what's the solution? Is we don't want people on the minimum wage. It's not ethical, it's not sustainable. It's not respectful. And so if we want a living wage, is that realistic? Yes, it was that they could pay the living wage. What's stopping them? So we figured out is it reputation? Is it them saving money, making money? What's the motive to get and then I picked craftivists that were part of their core customer base, because they're gonna listen to them much more than someone who isn't. And actually, a lot of activists go for let's have the people directly affected to be the voice, which I think is really important sometimes, but sometimes it can be objectifying, and it can be othering. And people are busy. And I'm from a very low income area in Everton, where we would sometimes feel like we were brought out as an object. So I didn't pick people who were their staff members because it could harm their job as well. So we only had, and again, it's quite counterintuitive. I said to Share Action, I said to the CEO who read my Little Book before my Big Book and said, "can you do something weird? Because we've tried everything" and I said, well, I'm only going to target 14 people, I'm not wanting hundreds of petitions signed or lots of handkerchiefs being given them because it needs to be intimate activism. And for three years they tried so much different types of traditional activism that didn't work with the board. They asked for a meeting with the CEO and were getting nowhere. So I thought well, who's above the CEO? The board he (he's still a he) is on the board. There's 14 of them. Let's buy a share. Let's wear our M&S clothes. Let's buy handkerchiefs from M&S to show that we're customers, and then we googled everything about the board member that we all were given, really figured out what we thought they would be encouraged and inspired by and then we wrote a timeless quote from someone that they would admire stitched it on the handkerchief and then we said "Please don't blow it. Use your power for good." So a bit of a pun, bit of humor, but not in bad taste, and then we wrote handwritten letters to go alongside it, but we wrapped it up in this handkerchief and this, you know, spent hours making it to say we believe in you as individuals that you can do something brilliant and you can change the history of M&S and then we hand delivered it very quietly at the side of the stage. We didn't ask for any photos. We didn't do a big presentation. And it was all boxed up in ribbon so they didn't know what each other's handkerchief looked like or said. So very intimate, one to one. And that form of intimate activism was what made it memorable, you know, it wasn't just the craft, it was the humility, it was the empathy. It was kind trying to figure out what might stop them, you know, always thinking about them, and not us, which is quite disarming for people and unusual and memorable.

Chantelle  12:43 God, that's amazing, that's so impressive.

[sound of scissors cutting]

Chantelle  15:31 So, can you tell us a little bit more about your experiences of campaigning in general, like you've given us a case study example, which is such a great example but I guess within the Craftivist Collective, but maybe beyond as well, your experience of campaigning.

Sarah  15:47 My experience of campaigning, well, there's photographic evidence of me age three with a mullet because my mom used to cut our hair, we were on a budget, standing outside of row of social housing that my community was squatting in to save from demolition, which is still standing, we won.

Chantelle  16:03 Woop woop!

Sarah  16:03 Woop woop! And we got on the cover of the local newspaper, the Liverpool Echo, where we had both bishops there and our big banner with a Martin Luther King quote on it. And so I, I am an activist and I'm passionate about activism. So I grew up in a low, very low income area in Everton, in Liverpool in the 80s. So under a Thatcher government, a very corrupt militant Council. My mom was a nurse, and then is now a politician - she's now deputy mayor of Liverpool City Council.

Chantelle  16:32 No way!

Sarah  16:32 And we have the first Black woman.

Chantelle  16:35 Yeah!

Sarah  16:36 in the country who's currently in Vogue magazine, who came to our last campaign, which we filmed for Sky Arts last month, (which comes out in October). So she's now, yeah, Deputy Mayor, my dad has been and still is the local Vicar in Everton,

Chantelle  16:49 Wow!

Sarah  16:49 and he runs the local youth club as the warden with the community. So I grew up in very high unemployment, bad nutrition, like quite a tough area and saw inequality firsthand, and my mum and dad majorly part of community action. Most meetings were in our back kitchen. And I was always a geek, I would listen to every conversation. So I very much grew up seeing when camp when campaigning could win when we lost hearing stories of campaigning for a health center, and them targeting the wrong power holder and having to be like, oh, bleep we need to get - we targeted the wrong person, it needs to be this person! So quite early on, I knew how to campaign and the strategies involved. And we went to South Africa for my dad's sabbatical just after Mandela got out in '91. So I was eight. Saw lots of the peace and reconciliation work they were doing there and Liberation Theology to bring back to Everton. So it was always very much a global perspective. I remember we boycotted oranges, and I didn't know what boycott and meant and why it was oranges, or, yeah, it was just part of our life have to be a good global citizen. You think about who are the most vulnerable in the world and how can we help? And if not help, how can we just not harm? So it was always a big part of my life.

Chantelle  18:03 That is honestly, I'm just sat here in awe, like, I did not think that we would that we would be talking about the Craftivist Collective and Mandela would come up!

Sarah  18:11 I think that's a good point, though. Because a lot of people go, you know, people go, oh, that sounds nice, what you do? And I'm like, Yeah, you're probably imagining me, you know, sitting away doing a bit of cross stitch saying, "make tea, not war" and I'm like, you can do that, but do you actually, you know, like I said, I wouldn't be doing it if it didn't work. Like I am really proud to say we have helped change policies and laws and behaviors and hearts and minds where people have told us it has helped them, which is what keeps me going. But there is a lot of presumption and baggage around craft and around women, and activism. And even the word "gentle", I'm like gentle is such a powerful word. It's really hard to be gentle, it's much easier to not have self control, and to just go "rawr" and have a tantrum. But when you have a tantrum, even, you know, rightly so we need righteous anger, but we need to channel it and control it and do it in the most way to help the cause. Because it's so easy for people to say, "I can't listen to you, you're shouting at me". Or people say "I can't talk to them - they've just thrown a milkshake at me" or "how do they know how to do my difficult job? It's easy for them to say stop "global warming now", but they're not giving me realistic solutions to do or tangible things, they haven't put themselves in my shoes." I'm always starting from the power holder's position, trying to think the best of them not the worst, but being realistic and pragmatic. And then I work backwards of where could craft help and where might it not help? And I think with all activism, we need to start from what's the problem? What are the realistic solutions? Who are the people in positions of power? Who do they listen to? And then where do we fit in? Sometimes it is right that we are the ones to say don't do this. Sometimes we need to shut up and recruit people who they'll listen to more or sometimes we need to just whisper in their ear and make them feel like they've come up with a decision and then say "well done you" when really what you want to say is I told you to do that. [laughs]

Chantelle  20:03 I think one of the things that I'm thinking about as you're talking, Sarah, particularly when you spoke about, like breaking down the word gentle, is something that is often very much missing within our movement. And that's the centering of love.

Sarah  20:15 Yeah!

Chantelle  20:15 And, like I do, I'm a strong believer in like, love being very, very powerful.

Sarah  20:21 Amen.

Chantelle  20:22 And I know that's, that can sometimes sound a bit cliche, but it's really hard to be loving.

Chantelle  20:27 Cheesey but it's so important. Yeah!

Chantelle  20:27 because we live in a very like... to quote bell hooks, we live in a very loveless world.

Sarah  20:31 Yes.

Chantelle  20:31 So to actually bring love and center love in how we approach our problems, I do think can be powerful. And yeah, like, there's gonna be people listening to this now being like, doesn't sound that maybe doesn't sound as powerful. But I think you have broken down exactly what it is to, to think about activism and its multiplicity. Think about activism as part of the toolkit is what you're saying, like, there are various things that work at various times, and being strategic as well.

Sarah  20:58 And selfishly, you know, it's not good for our physical, mental, it's not good for any of our health to be hateful, and to presume the worst of people, we can be realistic and pragmatic, and say, okay, we've done these awful things in the past, they might have done that some people very rarely, I think we go, we're not going to get anywhere with them, let's aim for, you know, some people a lot more on the fence that we can engage with. So doing a power analysis. But actually, it's really not good for our health to label people as "evil". I love  Brené Brown, so, you know, her whole thing of presume the best and you know, plan for the worst, but do always presume the best in people. Polarization is up, inequality is getting bigger, like, the more we're in our silos, and we're not encouraging each other, it's like, there's so much parts of activism that I just think we've really got to keep in check with ourselves.

Chantelle  21:52 No, I think you're right, Sarah, and I guess, where I sometimes don't always - aren't always able to see the best in people is thinking about power, and those that have the most power, and what they like, how can I change their hearts and minds? What can I do to them, to get them to stop being to stop widening inequality and being abusive.

Sarah  22:12 And you can't - they can change their hearts and minds and you can be there as a seed. But the majority of people, if not everyone thinks they're on the right side of history.

Chantelle  22:22 Yeah, it's scary isn't it?

Sarah  22:24 And nothing is that binary, there's always there is nuance involved. And there's so much more common ground than we think there is, so I think we need to meet in the middle. There's always going to be some stuff where it really is like horrific, but I think we we need to find common ground and work through stuff because it's just it's not working us screaming at each other.

Chantelle  22:44 Yeah, no, I think you're I think you're right. I think you're exactly right there, Sarah.

Sarah  22:48 I mean, even the funding sector, I have patrons who give me 10 pounds a month because I think the funding sector is pretty messed up and it's in the drama triangle, where they say, who were the baddies? (The perpetrators.) You're the rescuer. And who were the victims, you're going to rescue? And that's how you get funding in activism. I'm like, nope, I'm not part of that. I'm no one's savior. I'm not going... people are not victims, they figure out what power they have and can you know, create change, and I'm not writing people off as baddies. Sometimes you can work with someone who's a politician who's doing awful stuff, you can help shift them a little bit whilst you're still campaigning to get them out and replace them, like you can still do both! But I think, yeah, a lot of the activism is in the drama triangle that we need to change.

[sound of a sewing machine]

Chantelle  23:40 So Sarah, going forwards and just thinking again, like tangibly for the listeners, like what other types of campaigns have the Craftivist Collective worked on and successfully changed policy or changed hearts and minds or changed people's lives?

Sarah  23:54 So all of my projects are online, and we've got kits for an all have very different objectives. So all of them have crafter thought questions that you think through on your own or with a group while you're crafting them, and have, yeah, very clear strategies behind them. So I love after talking about the hankie project, I love sharing one that's completely opposite to that like that was like 10 or more hours and really bespoke for power holders. And we have lots of different projects. But the opposite one of that is Mini Fashion Statements that I created for Fashion Revolution. So that came out of when it was launched after the Rana Plaza disaster in Bangladesh. And I know the founders Carry and Orsola who were doing incredible stuff and linking to gentle protest. I loved their approaches, saying to people who love fashion, how you can use your influence to change the fashion industry. You don't have to be anti fashion and I love fashion.

Chantelle  24:46 Can I just say Sarah's sat here look in shaaaaaarp!

Sarah  24:52 Thanks! I know we can enjoy fashion and be activists. It's not one or the other. I get my Vogue subscription every month and I love it, it's allowed. And all of their actions, were you tagging the brand that you're wearing. And then you do a hashtag "who made my clothes?" So it's curious activism. It's not judgmental, it's saying to fashion brands, like, I've bought your clothes, I want to know who made them. So very clever. But it was all online. So I was trying to think like, how do we reach people who don't find it online? So I came up with this project that we've got little kits for now, which are Mini Fashion Statements. So they're little paper scrolls, take about five minutes to do each one. There's three messages and you pick the one that resonates with you. All of the languages nonviolent communication from Marshall Rosenberg's incredible work and you write in your neatest handwriting, ideally in a fountain pen in cursive writings so not capitals, not spiky letters, very gentle fonts, a message about you know, "What's the story behind this item of clothes? Is it one of joy or pain? Find out more @FashRev" for people to Google for more information and different actions they could take. And you roll it up. And I have embossed logo with my scissors and thread, all on textured watercolor paper because if you engage in two or more textures, you remember it more and it's more luxury paper than cheap. And then you put on the outside, "please open me" all lowercase with a smiley face and a kiss. So it's not aggressive or scary. And then you have ribbon in your kits which are turquoise, mauve, or purple, which is seen as luxury colors. So again, it's exciting to make them with your little bow, bit posh. And then you shop drop them. This is the opposite of shoplifting, so you just put one in a pocket of clothes in a shop that you think could be more ethical. So you don't spam people. And then you hope - and it's anonymous, so it's not about you, and you hope that people will find it. And because it says please open me the, again, the psychology is that person decides whether to open it or not. So they're much more likely to open it with an open heart and an open mind rather than being screamed at without giving permission. And they can find out more with the @FashRev. So very different to changing a law to have people have a pay increase, but just as important of its reaching people in a gentle way who then start thinking about how they might buy differently. It's reaching different media outlets that Fashion Revolution and others were struggling to get in to and I still get people email me now saying, "oh, I did your workshop," or "I got your kits and me and my daughter did it together," or "I gave it to my grandmother and now she's talking about Fashion Revolution." And sometimes it is planting those seeds and see where they go. So all of our projects are so different but have to be strategic of who are we trying to target? Who are we trying to reach? How are we trying to reach them? Is it changing a behavior? Is it changing a law? It was an easy quick answer. But I just encourage people to have a go and then see where it takes them really,

Chantelle  27:46 Sarah, that is incredible. Like honestly, I'm just sat here in awe like, no, but I love meeting people that really kind of change, yeah, change my heart and mind. As in like I knew that you were a very impressive campaigner and activist but like getting the detail of it

Sarah  28:02 My rambles.

Chantelle  28:03 No! The detail is so powerful.

Sarah  28:06 Well, I'm doing a handbook at the moment because we've got Little Book, Yellow Book of the methodology, and then the Handbook is going to be a gorgeous coffee table book with loads of projects. And we've got a gentle protest colorwheel in there by an amazing color therapist called Mumtaz Benum, she's amazing. And we've got some gentle protest fonts done by Sarah Hyneman, who's a typographer. So all of this stuff will be there. So you have to get involved.

Chantelle  28:32 Thank you so much, Sarah, what an inspiring conversation.

Sarah  28:35 Oh, it's hope it's useful and people can find out more online and there's lots of videos to watch...

Chantelle  28:45 Thank you so much Sarah.

Sarah  28:46 Thank you!