In our final episode of this season, Chantelle spoke to Jemima Hartshorn from Mums for Lungs about air pollution and how to organise on an issue that feels so big and so unsolvable.
Reading list
Jemima recommends:
Following the Ella Roberta Family Foundation
You might also want to check out:
The Book of Trespass by Nick Hayes
What Goes Around by Emily Chappelle
Back in the Frame by Jools Walker
The following sound effects were used in this episode:
Walking Across London Bridge JoeDinesSounds
Buses.wave dggrunzweig
"Ambience, Children Playing, Distant, A.wav" by InspectorJ (www.jshaw.co.uk) of Freesound.org
If you enjoyed this podcast, you should listen to the Surviving Society Podcast which is also hosted by Chantelle and check out other shows supported by Content is Queen. You can follow Cerys on Twitter or sign up to their mailing list to find out what else they're up to.
Transcript
Chantelle 00:03 Hello and welcome to the Revolution Begins at Home, a podcast about activism, what it looks like and who gets to do it.
Chantelle 00:12 My name is Chantelle Lewis. I'm a Public Sociologist and the co-founder and co-host of the Surviving Society Podcast.
Chantelle 00:21 Throughout this series, I'm going to be speaking to activists and advocates about their work. We'll be talking about what it means to be an activist, what it involves, and how structures of power determine what we consider to be activism or worthy of an activist movement.
00:45 Theme music
Chantelle 00:46 In today's episode, I spoke to Jemima Hartshorn.
Jemima Hartshorn 00:50 Sometimes it's really about coming up with small, feasible solutions to make a difference.
Chantelle 00:56 Jemima is a strategist, community leader, and an environmental campaigner. She co-founded the group Mums for Lungs, and in 2019, was named by the Evening Standard as one of the year's most influential Londoners for her work in reducing air pollution. I spoke to her about the creation of Mums for Lungs, why groups like it unnecessary, and the challenges they face when trying to make a difference. Before we hear the conversation, here are Jemima's activist influences.
Jemima Hartshorn 01:30 Well, I feel the standard one is the Suffragettes obviously. And I almost feel a bit boring by saying that at all, but I just find them so interesting, because they just fought against adversity. And some of them still living in very traditional lives. Many of them were basically married and had children and had very traditional lives and yet, they said, this is an injustice, we really want to fight for our women's rights, and we really want to vote as well. And then there were obviously Suffragettes, who took almost, you know, almost had to decide to go for a different lifestyle that was very uncommon for women who were divorced and decided not to have children and had jobs and things like that. I find it very empowering because, in a way, they were fighting in a double way, you know what I mean? Their lives themselves were so traditional to get out from that life to get into real, serious campaigning, including getting arrested and things like that. It's just really inspiring.
02:35 [theme music]
Chantelle 02:37 Hello everyone. Today, I'm excited to be joined by - remotely - joined by Jemima Hartshorn from Mums for Lungs. Jemima, thank you so much for joining me today.
Jemima Hartshorn 02:49 Well, thank you for having me. I'm super excited!
Chantelle 02:51 So Jemima, could you tell our listeners, what is Mums for Lungs?
Jemima Hartshorn 02:56 Okay, Mums for Lungs is a network of parents across London and further afield, especially because of the pandemic now, who are campaigning against air pollution. And most of us have children, most of us are sort of driven by the huge health impacts that air pollution, especially from diesel cars, and wood burning has on children's health. So that is why we campaign and that's why we get together.
Chantelle 03:26 So how did you start this work? How did Mums for Lungs get started?
Jemima Hartshorn 03:31 Well, I was on maternity leave for the first time and I have a background of being Human Rights Lawyer and I worked-
Chantelle 03:37 Wait! Jemima, roll back, roll back that is like that is big business right? Jemima, legend in the room, legend on the show. The human rights lawyer, let's not let's not let's not just sweep over that. Please, please tell us more.
Jemima Hartshorn 03:53 Okay, this is really awkward. I'm literally blushing here and no one can see it because it's a podcast.
Chantelle 03:57 It's important! I've said before on this show - whenever I interview men, I have to listen to them go on and on and on about all that shit and then the women just kind of skirt over all their amazing achievements. So please, you're allowed to blush, but equally, this is a space for bigging you up.
Jemima Hartshorn 04:15 [laughing] Thank you Chantelle. So, yeah, so I, you know, I I was working as a Human Rights Lawyer in a charity on Defense Rights in Brussels and in London. So that's what I was doing. I qualified as a lawyer in Germany many years ago. Anyway, I sort of went on maternity leave in 2016 for the first time and I was living in a very polluted and very busy area of London. I was living in Brixton. We were living on Coldharbour Lane, and I was you know, pushing the pram and so on. And I started thinking at this one stage that many mums and dads perhaps too will know when you're sort of ready to leave the baby bubble, you're sort of done with talking only about like poo and naps and solid food and I was you know, looking around, there was cars everywhere and cars are smelly and dangerous. I was like, "this is not great." And I started reading about air pollution of it. And it's one of these topics that when you start reading about it, you suddenly see articles and issues around everywhere. So you know, I did that I started talking about air pollution to other people. And it turned out there was a bunch of us who were really concerned about air pollution and the health impacts it has, because air pollution at the levels that we experienced in London can stunt children's lung growth, strong links to exacerbating and causing cancer and asthma and wheezing, and even mental health issues. All these things are very closely linked. And we started getting really worried. And it's like, ok we want to do something! And because I had this background of the, you know, Human Rights Lawyer-y stuff of wanting to change things, when I, when I see problems, I was like, okay, "the law needs to be different, the policies need to be different..." And we started Mums for Lungs, and it was really cool. On Wednesday afternoons we would meet, and there was as many parents, most of us mums, to be fair, and babies in the room. So there'd be paddling pools, or whatever we needed to make it possible and fun for the children at the same time, but it was brilliant. And it's sort of going from there.
Chantelle 06:15 That's amazing Jemima. So to what extent is Mums for Lungs about educating people about the dangers of air pollution, whilst also being about lobbying the Government and lawmakers about air pollution? Like how would you say the time is divided in the organization?
Jemima Hartshorn 06:40 I would say it's probably about perhaps half-half or so? But it really depends, because we're an organization - we're primarily grassroots,
Chantelle 06:49 Yes!
Jemima Hartshorn 06:50 ...and volunteers. So we have a little bit of funding now. You know, me and another, mother are sort of funded part time to do a bit of work sometimes for Mums for Lungs, but most of us are volunteers, and we volunteer as well. So you know, everyone, as a volunteer always brings what they bring, and they want to bring. So you know, as a volunteer, if you decide that your big thing is to educate people, then you do that. And if your big thing is to write letters to policymakers to change the law, then you do that. So it sort of really depends on what we're doing. But also, I feel that raising awareness and getting policy to change and getting government to finally address the issue of air pollution are very closely linked, because government, at least that's my opinion, will only do things if a lot of people show that they care. So people can only care if they know about the issue. So it starts with raising awareness, and giving really easy ways that people can join our campaigns and show that air pollution is an issue that they want to address. And then I hope that will translate into government change.
Chantelle 07:58 And why is it that government changes so slow on the matter of air pollution?
Jemima Hartshorn 08:04 To be completely honest, I don't know and I don't understand because apart from COVID, the biggest public health issue we have in the UK, it you know, it's a huge issue across the world, but even in the UK, about 40,000 people die every year earlier than they would have if it weren't for the high levels of air pollution and people die of issues like a cardiac arrest, or they die of a stroke or they die of the cancer and they won't know, their family won't know that it was air pollution that made this illness so bad, that that is the reason they actually died. So we're talking 40,000 preventable deaths across the UK every year, but it is rarely known and death certificates don't really say that apart from this one case where very tragically a little girl died a few years ago in South London.
Chantelle 08:59 That's Ella Adoo-Kissi-Debrah who died. Ella who lived near the South circular road in Lewisham, Southeast London died in 2013. An inquest found air pollution had made had made a material contribution to her death.
Jemima Hartshorn 09:13 Yes, and her mother Rosamund fought so strong for this recognition and continues to be the most inspiring campaigner and mum around to be honest, yet, there has not been the change in law that we need to see and the change in policy because if you really wanted to address air pollution, the first two changes that would be absolutely necessary basically would be to probably ban diesel cars in cities and ban wood burning for comfort across the country. Those are the two biggest sources of air pollution and where it is not necessary to either drive a diesel vehicle or have a woodburner for warmth. It just needs to be stopped both of it.
10:02 [sound of traffic]
Chantelle 10:05 I'm always interested in how we can find multi class alliances and solidarities. Not in a sort of apathetic way just in like a sort of practical way. And actually like this this issue, just like with a global pandemic, this is an issue that is - that affects everyone doesn't affect everyone equally, as we know, like, particularly we think about housing and where people live. But in terms of who... we're all breathing that same air, some of us might be more exposed to it than others because of, yeah, reasons such as what access to materials we have, what housing we have, but surely, as you said, like, I don't understand why this doesn't, this isn't being picked up. Surely the solidarities can be made across class status generations on this issue?
Jemima Hartshorn 10:57 Yes, I totally agree in the way I'm just standing there shocked all the time by how little action is being taken, especially by central government, that is, you know, really resisting all efforts. And it's really doing only very, very tiny steps to clean up the air. But currently, our government has drafted a new environment bill, and it has not committed to legal limits on air pollution in this law that would be in line with WHO guideline limits. So we're standing here and people are dying - 40,000 people a year, many more 1000s are ill, really ill and can't do certain things, can't work because of bad asthma or, you know, I know an amazing mom who's involved with Mums for Lungs a lot and her son has got wheezing. She was told a few years ago to no longer walk by "traffic-y roads". I mean, how is that meant to work in a city like London?
Chantelle 12:01 It's just- it's just mad, cuz it's putting... it's always putting things back onto the individual rather than taking responsibility. And it's so disappointing.
Jemima Hartshorn 12:11 I know. And it's like, you know, drive a little less well, you know, what, like, people would drive less if public transport were cheaper. If it were better. In the outer boroughs of London, even, not even to think of cities like Birmingham or Manchester that have much less public transport, there's a real problem with public transport to getting from one area to the other. And I was listening to an amazing presentation by Tiffany Lamb, a while back who's sort of, you know, highlighted how the public transport is all really in a way basically designed for men. Because it is the public transport... even if you look at London, most of the tube lines basically go in, right? Into the centre of London, but statistically actually more of the school ones, that will be across boroughs, sort of further out East-West, those trips, they are done by mothers in the majority, you know, taking a kid to a hobby in the afternoon, or this kind of stuff, going to birthday parties, all of this is much more done on an East-West access, than going into the centre of London, and there you're then relying on buses that are slow, not often coming, you don't know if you can take the pram on it, this kind of stuff. It's really, it's really quite staggering, if you sort of look at the bigger picture, you know, how public transport is designed and how difficult it is in some cases to not drive but there's obviously other issues as well. So diesel vehicles still in 2021, their emissions don't actually meet what they are legally allowed to emit. So that's an absolute shocker. There was a huge diesel scandal in 2015, where it turned out that most of the companies producing cars that are diesel cars, and that are, you know, the very often sold cars across Europe, were all basically emitting much more toxic nitrogen dioxide, which is the one that exacerbates wheezing, gives you asthma, that kind of - lung inflammation, then they were legally allowed. You know what happened in the US? Some of the people who had designed these cheating cars, went to prison. In Germany, these companies were fined billions. And in the UK, they got a slap on the hand and we're told that this was not good. That's it, nothing else happened. There is so many related issues that I just find really shocking.
Chantelle 14:48 I think Jemima everything you've just said is just so true. And I'm just sat here like, like want to pull my hair out like because the thing that - the thing that's sort of in the back of my head or the word that's in the back of my head is capitalism. Because actually, like what I was taught, I was trying to say to you like, where are the solidarities? Like what, like surely this is something that people can be united on what they think about it. But actually, there's, there's money to be made, isn't there? There's money to be made in air pollution. And actually, it-it does come down to a moral question. Are we happy for some people to die of air pollution for the sake of big business? Like when you're talking about, so I'm just become like, wow, okay "so that's the question, really!"
Jemima Hartshorn 15:34 Yes, I think you're right. And that seems to be the question. And currently, the Government is answering it in a certain way. And it's making no amendments in its policies and laws that would stop that. And it's just very, very depressing. It's just horrible. Today is a medium high pollution day.
Chantelle 15:57 Yeah, because it's warm today, isn't it? It's warm today, yeah.
Jemima Hartshorn 16:00 I got a warning on my phone today. I'm like, I mean, what am I supposed to do? As a result? I can't do anything. It's just really depressing. The whole issue. However, I feel like I'm getting in a very, very, very depressed mindset here. The whole thing I tried to do with my campaigning with the amazing volunteers that do all this campaigning with me is to find positive ways to engage on this issue, to raise awareness of it in a more positive way and get people to adopt changes that then signal to government that people as a whole are ready for a change. So, for example, we ran a campaign about a year ago for the start of school again, after all the lockdowns and stuff in September, where I think about 150 volunteers across the country put up 10 or more colorful posters near schools in particular, that said things like "connect and walk together to school", this kind of messaging, we like people to think about why it is actually fun to travel in a way to school and elsewhere of course, that is non polluting, ie not in a car. Sorry, I was just trying to change the topic, we were going down a very gloomy...
Chantelle 17:14 No, no, no. Yes. And yes, that's I would like to No, no, [laughing] what I actually wanted to ask you is a combination of what are some of the things that Mum for Lungs have achieved over the past few years? And then secondly, what have you got planned for the foreseeable future?
Jemima Hartshorn 17:32 The problem is with achievement in air pollution is there's not a single thing I could point to and say, this has only happened because of Mums for Lungs. I like to think that we are
Chantelle 17:42 Contributing to change?
Jemima Hartshorn 17:44 A noisy voice
Chantelle 17:45 Yes!
Jemima Hartshorn 17:46 I hope that we are successful in raising awareness on social media and in other ways by putting up posters and flyers and things like that. And we have been really banging the drum for School Streets, which is a scheme whereby the road by a school is closed at drop off and pickup times for about an hour, which means that where the children are most clustered, and their parents and carers and siblings at the school gate, the pollution levels will be down. And it also really encourages people to walk or cycle to school because if you have to get out of the car the last 300 meters anyway, for many people, the school run is actually so short, it's not really worth driving at all. So we've, you know, been really supporting parents on campaigning for School Streets and doing a lot drumming around it. And that is, I think about 350 School Streets in London now. And a year ago, I think it was about 60.
Chantelle 18:42 That's amazing! It's so amazing.
18:45 [sound of a bus]
Chantelle 18:53 I didn't grow up in the city. I grew up in the suburbs. But I grew up in the 90s, and the 00s. And we used to be able to take our bikes to school, and then it stopped like quite abruptly. And I don't know what-I mean... and I also was thinking about how like air pollution has become like, air pollution should now be considered the most important thing in terms of protecting children around school areas, and also all of us in general. But the other thing that I was thinking about is how this compares to there was like really big campaigns, I think during the sort of New Labour years for sort of "safe streets" in terms of the speed limit, and that - like the combination of the smoking ban, and the speed limit really kind of dominates my understanding of how the government and other sort of lobbyists which were, not lobbyists, sorry, campaigners, were looking to protect children. And it's really interesting, but it doesn't seem like with air pollution, it doesn't seem to have got the same kind of media attention. Like when it came to, when I was growing up, like, obviously getting not that long ago, I'm only 28, young people getting run over like that was like the big that was a big things. Cars speeding and also smoking. And it's like, how, how would these connections not been made? And perhaps it comes back to the point that you said earlier in terms of central government not taking enough leadership on these matters? Maybe central government did do a good job on those matters? I don't I don't know. Does that kind of make - does it make sense the connections I'm trying to make there?
Jemima Hartshorn 20:30 Yeah, yeah. You know, I didn't grow up in the UK. I grew up in Germany. So you know, I don't know what the feeling was. But you're not the first one to raise it. It's weird. I don't know. Because there are strong similarities between smoking and air pollution, both from diesel cars, as well as from wood burning. It is just so weird, because UK has been violating a commitment to have certain air pollution levels for 11 years now. And it's just been getting away with it. There is like laws that say by 2010, air pollution has to be below 40 milligrams of nitrogen dioxide annually per year. And the UK exceeds it in many, many areas. And it just seems to be, or I should say England, perhaps, but it just seems to be acceptable. And I'm like where does this come from? And I also see that you were talking about speeding, I do get a bit surprised by these issues, because like in Germany, it is completely acceptable that there is lots of speed cameras. Lots! And there are moving speed cameras, and if you get fined, you pay the fine and you're embarrassed because it's not okay. Right? You shouldn't be speeding because you're danger on the road. In the UK, if someone speeds, it's like, oh my god, they they're being, like I'm being used as a cash cow! I'm like NO.
Chantelle 21:54 Yeah.
Jemima Hartshorn 21:55 What-why are you a cash cow? This is not acceptable!
Chantelle 21:58 British exceptionalism, it's a hell of a drug. Like the other thing I did didn't mention as well was drink drive it and that was another massive, massive. I mean, people obviously still do it now. But that was a massive government backed campaign to stop, yeah, speeding, drink driving. It's just like, why has the same thing happened?
Jemima Hartshorn 22:17 Why has that stopped? And what is this idea about a cash cow? And you know, you will see people driving into areas that say you're not allowed to drive here will say and people will say "well, I drove there but I didn't know the road sign..." And they'll share that happily on like Next Door Neighbours and Facebook. You shouldn't be a driver. You wouldn't like as a driver admit to not knowing a road sign like! You know, I'm just really baffled. And the problem is that all of this has a real knock on effect on cycling. So I know of many people, by the way, including myself, who are very uncomfortable cycling, or I only got into cycling during the pandemic, because people say it's too dangerous. And I think it is very dangerous to be cycling on London's roads, and we don't have a car and accordingly, I'm always on the bus or on the tube with my young children. But all my friends in Germany with young children are all cycling all the time. And I feel like if I look at the buses, they are often very full. And someone like me, who is like healthy and has two strong legs should really be cycling everywhere. And leaving the bus free for those people who really need the bus. But it's dangerous and I find it dangerous. And cars are not considerate of cyclists. So I've been like on a road cycling with my small daughter, my daughter's two, and she was on the bike seat in front of me and the car would hoot at me! And I'm like, excuse me? I actually have a right to being here.
Chantelle 23:45 So now we're going, now we're going from British Exceptionalism to London madness [laughter]
Jemima Hartshorn 23:50 That has a knock on effect. So I always think, everyone who's driving in London if they don't need to, or if they're driving badly, they are polluting twice perhaps, because once they're polluting because they're driving and secondly, they are potentially, they're a driver who discourages and scares another cyclist from driving. So this you know, I know people who get into cars because they say cycling is too dangerous. So if all drivers were more considerate more people would feel comfortable to cycle and yeah, you know, air pollution would would be reduced.
Chantelle 24:30 Also like I think without trying to hone in on the individual too much, like the people in power set the parameters for how you behave as citizens don't they? Like they set the example, if they're behaving in ways that are inconsiderate of your fellow citizens, then it normalizes it.
Jemima Hartshorn 24:50 Totally. And that should be just you know, there should be an overhaul of the speed limit system, for example, and government should be really clear and say look, we're going for Vision Zero, as it was called the Vision Zero of zero road deaths and say, look, we've had enough of it, we're not accepting this, so, you know, we're gonna put in more public transport a lot more speed cameras, and if you get fined, you get fined seriously and if you get caught several times you lose your driving licence for six months. And I reckon that would really make people reconsider how they drive. And it frankly will take the worst drivers off the road.
25:27 [children playing]
Chantelle 25:34 So obviously, we've been in the last sort of 18 months, a global pandemic - COVID-19. How is the impact of the pandemic impacted your campaign at Mums for Lungs?
Jemima Hartshorn 25:47 It's been really interesting for us because obviously, firstly, there was a feeling that we couldn't really campaign because there was this pandemic, and it was throwing everyone into a really weird and scary world. And all of us were very, very worried. But then it feels like it has equally really raised the awareness of the need to protect our lungs. Right just today, the Mayor of London has published a report, which highlights the links of getting more sick from COVID-19 if you've been exposed to higher air pollution. So I think that awareness is there and for us from a volunteer campaigning group, that also every listener here is very, very welcome to join, please, if you have children or not, we have also seen that the move to zoom has been actually for us quite beneficial. So we have people joining from across the country, and across London on a much more regular basis than we previously did when we met in the three different boroughs of London, you know, directly in the pub. But I think other things is that, yeah, the awareness of air pollution has increased but equally a sort of car dependency has perhaps become more than norm. People were really worried about getting on public transport during a pandemic, understandably, so I think it will take much work to get away from this habit again and remind people of getting back onto public transport in order to reduce air pollution.
Chantelle 25:50 Because you think about that time like in like, think about the lockdowns, like what the cities were like, like it was just so quiet. And it was just there was no traffic on the road. And like the air like you could breathe- like it was so noticeable. Like you can fit you can see it and you can feel it, the air just cleaner. And now actually like as we're recording now we're in September 2021, I'm looking out the window, and I'm walking like down the street, I'm walking across Waterloo Bridge, and the pollution is just back with a vengeance and so are the cars!
Jemima Hartshorn 27:49 Yes, in many areas, pollution is likely to be higher than it was pre pandemic, because
Jemima Hartshorn 27:54 people have gotten into habits of driving a lot. And the other thing is that in the pandemic, obviously people really got into deliveries, you know, food deliveries. So a lot of the different delivery companies, including, for example, Sainsbury's, and Tesco and so on, they hired loads, loads and loads of drivers. People really got into Amazon, much more than they were before. And that is a really worrying, change. And I'm not quite sure how we are going to make that shift again, that people will actually remember to go to their local High Street and not order from Amazon. That will people will actually return to going shopping by themselves on foot or with a bike to do their food shopping as well. So, you know, the pandemic has sort of increased awareness of lung health, but has also made us get into habits that are really, really bad from an air pollution perspective. So it's a really big risk to to to, you know, to combine again, and to get back into it. And I don't know how we're gonna to manage that as campaigners. We actually recently did a campaign where we looked at the monitors with an amazing organization called the Environmental Defense Fund. And they realized that in 2020, even when traffic was much reduced 15 of the air pollution monitors in London recorded illegal levels across the whole year. So that included the very low pollution months of April, May and June. And we put out stencils in these areas saying this monitor is you know, recorded illegal levels of air pollution because we want people to know, you know, and we've got a bit of media around it and in quite a lot of boroughs. So that was great. But it was very, very shocking to see how am I even doing the pandemic air pollution was and I think everyone is really - all campaigners are worried and anxious to see how air pollution will go in the next few months. Now that you know, London and the world have reopened quite a lot, but people have perhaps gotten into into bad habit. So, you know, we are really campaigning for the Mayor of London to take much bolder action and protect young and old lungs across London by implementing much stronger legislation and policies to really reduce driving because we know so much about lung health now. We need to be healthy - if every breath you take is polluted, you're never going to be a happy and healthy being in London.
Chantelle 27:54 No!
Chantelle 30:23 Definitely. Oh Jemima, thank you so much that was absolutely brilliant!
Jemima Hartshorn 30:28 Well, thank you, this has been really fun.
[theme music]
Chantelle 30:40 Thanks for listening to the Revolution Begins at Home.
Chantelle 30:43 If you enjoyed it, you should check out other podcasts supported by Content is Queen.
Chantelle 30:48 This podcast was presented by myself Chantelle Lewis and produced by Cerys Bradley. If you want to hear more of our work, there are links in the description.
Chantelle 30:58 Many thanks to Jemima for talking to us. You can find out more about Mums for Lungs on their website. If you want to help reduce air pollution in London or wherever you are, Mums for Lungs is a great place to start. You might also want to check out the reading list we've included in the description of this podcast. The music for the podcast is from Blue Dot sessions with additional sound from freesound.org.
Chantelle 31:24 See you next time.